Make low-command Wielders more viable

172 votes

Currently, Command gives disproportionately high advantages, no matter the stage of the game. I personally can never really have enough weak stacks to throw away: they increase essence production, soak up retaliations, bait out attacks (Momentum can be a bit of a noob trap), slow down enemy movement, and make ranged units ineffectual. Using musicians and other buffers makes this tactic even stronger.

I would love to have skills, spells, artifacts, wielders, or units that encourage players to either not choose Command so much or to keep some troop slots empty.

I have a few ideas on how to achieve this but I'd rather keep this suggestion generic, we can maybe get into the whats and hows in the comments below ;)

Released! 🎉 Suggested by: Xaph (16 May, '22) • Upvoted: 26 Oct • Comments: 22

Comments: 22

16 May, '22
Xaph
Here's some ideas, all of which could manifest through Skills, Artifacts, Spells, Unit Abilities, or Research:

- The friendly stack with the least amount of units gets a generous buff (+movement, offense, defense, initiative)
- A buff that gets distributed and diluted amongst your fielded stacks (so with 3 stacks each get 1/3rd of the buff, with 7 stacks each get 1/7th of the buff)
- A buff that increases Momentum's effect across the board, for both yourself and the enemies you're facing
- An effect that damages all troops proportionately to the % of missing units in a stack
- An effect that reduces the movement and nullifies essence production of stacks with a large % of missing units
16 May, '22
Pablo
I agree, I would like something like this.
16 May, '22
HarryFrazee
Agreed. In general, command is too good in comparison to other skills so if you level up and get offered it you're just automatically taking it. Although this is a bit linked to the magic system which to me is not quite there yet, so some changes to how essence works could definitely end up nerfing command. To be honest right now it would probably be fine to make the change that you don't get extra essence by splitting up stacks. There is already other benefits to doing this so it really doesn't need to give extra essence on top of that.
17 May, '22
Ventri
I agree that Command is a bit too strong; even when I've tried some magic heavy starts having an extra creature seemed better than another magic skill most times thanks to the essence generating system.

"- An effect that reduces the movement and nullifies essence production of stacks with a large % of missing units" and "- An effect that damages all troops proportionately to the % of missing units in a stack" seem like interesting ideas to me. And I wouldn't be against a momentum buff.

While I'd like to see low-Command wielders be more viable, I think it would just be easier to limit command to 4+(wielder level/3) and have the third skill slot offer something other than Command if you are maxed out. I'd prefer to see Command be a more optional skill though so if they can come up with ways to make the other skills more competitive that'd be great.
17 May, '22
Exart
I think in would be cool to use an empty army slots for artifacts (no matter if they are opened by command level), Two-handed atrifacts take two slots. Its still less useful than stack of units, but could lead to some interesting build desicions.
18 May, '22
Cirdan121
I would suggest removing the command skill altogether. I take it above all else. You could automaticlly get a "command" skill level up every two levels and still choose another skill. Or you can only choose a skill every second level up, when you dont get the command skill upgrade automaticlly. But this skill takes aut alot of possibilities and fun out of the game for me.
18 May, '22
Glyfos
Agree with Cirdan, command is actually mandatory, so give it should be considered.
I'm not sure that it's needed to encourage little armies, it's the opposite of the game's objective that consists in growing an empire and it's army with it.
18 May, '22
Emperor
I agree with the idea of having Essence being limited to unit types rather than stacks, as well as removing the skill and have a set amount of slots from the start. Or increase the base amount to 4 or 5 units and have it be a 3-level skill like every other skill, then offer other options in the third level up slot once maxed.
19 May, '22
Lord of Riva
Automatic command progression would be preferable.
05 Jun, '22
Zymeth
Keep in mind - there is a momentum mechanic that gives a solid buff to all your units after killing 1 enemy stack.
09 Jun, '22
PhamTrinli
An alternative would be to eliminate command as a skill and instead base the number of troop slots a wielder can have on their level

Level 1 = 3 slots
Level 3 = 4 slots
Level 5 = 5 slots
Level 7 = 6 slots
Level 9 = 7 slots
Level 11 = 8 slots
17 Jun, '22
Mikhail
It's an odd suggestion...
It is Disciples-style leadership that provides the variation and strategic options in army composition. Ordinary Heroes1,2,3... are deprived of all this. Maximum linear development. It's boring.

I think you just do not like this factor, as an additional to the many others that make the game very non-linear in terms of development of heroes and the kingdom.
13 Jul, '22
Cavallion
I don't dislike "command", but I agree, that it is to mandatory and I don't see any other options then to stack it up as soon as possible, atm.
What about making "command" a skill like the ones you can get at level 8? I think it would balance with the +2 life points and others quite well AND you have to choose it. Therefor it would be needed, to put up the standards to 5 troops, or 4 troops in case you give a first choice on "lvl 0", from the start, but then you have to make a tough decission always until you get all 9 troop slots, which would be earliest with level 32 (or 24).
Positiv side effect would be, that one, as you can't take all troop typs within one hero (until lvl 24 / 32), one would have to combine wisely and depending on the enemy typ.
14 Jul, '22
Desocupado
I suggested removing the skill, having everyone start with 5 unit limit, then getting up to +2 with research and having some wielder classes able to have more units (command classes).
15 Jul, '22
Borton
At the very least it would be welcome to be able to limit the maximum level of command for a skirmish (or a campaign scenario), just like the maximum amount of wielders.

Also, a maximum of 9 stacks fells like a little too much to me. As other people have suggested, start with 3/4 stacks and be able to at most double the amount by getting one extra slot every 5 wielder levels or so.
21 Jul, '22
Nozferatu
I love Cirdan121's comment.

"I would suggest removing the command skill altogether. I take it above all else. You could automaticlly get a "command" skill level up every two levels and still choose another skill. Or you can only choose a skill every second level up, when you dont get the command skill upgrade automaticlly. But this skill takes aut alot of possibilities and fun out of the game for me."
01 Sep, '22
ker
I don't mind automatic progression but maybe all other skills need to be more powerful to actually be balanced against command? I don't think command is inherently a bad skill - just too good.
30 Nov, '22
Moderator Admin
This has been done with Wielder tweaks and general balancing.
03 Dec, '22
Galileji
Automatic increase of slots for troops wouldn't be bad...
18 Dec, '22
Cid
Command is extremely powerful, but so are many other skills. If it's difficult to decide which skill to pick, that's usually a good sign that things are relatively balanced (it sucks to feel like there's always an obvious "best" choice). I'm torn on this one, I don't know what if anything I would change other than buffing some weak skills like the +1 wood/stone skills (e.g. they should give more than the rare resource skills).
19 Jul
Jluil
While this is in released state, I don't see any noticable improvements in this area.
Now 1 stacks are a huge part of combat gameplay in games like homm 3. (just check some videos how you can beat angel portal week 1 with some marksmen and pikemen).
Basically every 1 stack provides you with 1 extra turn of survivability for your power stack unit and/or limits casualties per battle.
In comparsion if some other skill gives you extra 10% damage, you would have to use it for many turns to get the a advantage from it damage wise and even then your power stack might just kill the enemy stacks in one turn with or without the bonus.

In SoC the additional benefits are:
- more troops for battle (as there is limit per stack)
- more essence generation (even up to 3 per 1 stacks)
19 Jul
Jluil
(My post is already too long so I split in two)
To fix this my suggestions are following:
a)
Basically what many people say, make command grow per hero level instead.
Additionally, I think in this case essence should only grow per unique army type (so 1 stacks won't generate any).
b)
Instead of command providing extra army slots, you will start with some generous 7 slots but for each slot used above 3 you will get negative morale.
Command skill would negate negative morale instead.
Now what morale does is up to discussion, but I would suggest -10% damage and -10% initiative per negative morale.
This effect would last for entire battle.
So with 7 slots used you will get -4 morale = -40% damage and -40% initiative.
However you could still use your 1 stacks to generate essence so mages might still use all slots.