Add a second upgraded version for units

472 votes

If adding a lot of factions after the four we currently have isn't something that is foreseen, I would suggest adding a seconded upgraded version for each unit, in a manner similar to what Heroes of Might & Magic V Tribes of the East did : not only this would allow the introduction of new assets without having to work on them from the ground up, but this would also give more ways to express a faction's identity (and Songs of Conquest already likes to show the bivalent nature of each faction, most notably through the race coexistence aspect) and give players ways to mix and match different combinations of units, multiplying the potential replayability of each faction.

That said, all of this depends on what level of complexity the studio would like to bring to each faction. Plus, it would require a rework of the UI for the unit window to allow both forms to coexist. I would perfectly understand if that kind of idea were secondary at best.

In any case, thanks for you work !

Currently not planned Suggested by: Hinin (16 May, '22) • Upvoted: yesterday • Comments: 32

Comments: 32

16 May, '22
Pierre le masson
Alternative upgrade would be a massive plus - SoC does a great job at letting you build armies the way you want with a more flexible building system, but this could be further improved. It is often the number 1 argument people bring up while arguing if HOMM 5 is better than 3, in SoC those alternative units could have different abilities and also give different essence. Giving an alternative upgrade for each unit by changing a few colors and swapping a few details like the weapon is also far less time-consuming than adding new units. Since the game has fewer factions than HOMM with no possibility to mix and match, it’s fair to say that each faction needs to have more depth.
16 May, '22
butttface
I would agree
16 May, '22
Stoyan Stoyanov
one of the best and almost unique features of HoMM5 and a saving grace for a bad game, almost impossible to play 1vs1, except Arena
HoMM5 and Disciples provided an initial idea for the balance and different tactics we can have in TBS, AoW4 tried to do this via unit mods - but the issues there were with design that had flying units - and flying units + mods makes everything else obsolete :D

This i expect is going to need a lot of testing and i wouldn't expect the feature before adding more races, random map generator and other more important features. Good luck!
16 May, '22
Piper
We have placeholder abilities as it is now. Expecting them to pump out new factions while also giving an alt option to every existing troop would be stretching things too far.
16 May, '22
Pierre le masson
Well comparing alternative units with a new faction is not really fair because it's not the same amount of work at all!

For alternative units, you need to create new 24 new models which are just variations of existing ones. For a new faction, you need to create 8 new unit models, 8 alternative ones, about 14 new building models and 9 new heroes models, + all the 2d art for the heroes and technology... It's a lot more work

An alternative upgrade for all units would require less work and in my view would add more to the game than one new faction if done well, keep in mind that you can't mix units and heroes like in HOMM so adding a faction mostly matters if you are interested in playing that faction.

But eventually, it would be nice to have both.
16 May, '22
Dwarfurious
Agree with this, really liked it in HoMM5 and adds more build options and more hero specialization and all the more reason to try and scout your enemy to see what they're up to
17 May, '22
Game kNight Plays
Hmm, isn't this in the same line as my suggestion? https://songsofconquest.featureupvote.com/suggestions/300116/splitupgrade-tree-buildings-for-existing-units
17 May, '22
Grzegorz
Great idea! One of the best heroes V features.
18 May, '22
Łukasz M.
I think it will add a lot. But it will also generate a lot of work for Devs. Maybe we could just add alternative last tier unit to every faction in the game?
18 May, '22
ThePykeSon Merged
Hello, I am writing this suggestion just because I am curious if there is possibility of adding second version on unit upgrade, just like in Heroes of Might and Magic V Tribes of the East. Maybe it is just me but I think that there is a huge potential in adding something like that. For example we have "Footman" and his upgraded version "Shield of Order" which one is good frontline and nice defence, how about a second version "Sword of Order" (just example) with greatsword, no shield. Better attack but worse defence and 3/5 less HP than Shield of Order, and with similiar to Faey Rager ability with double attack or maybe "ignore 35% target's defence". (Don't bully guys, English is not my native language)
18 May, '22
Munin Admin
"Units Alternative Upgrade" (suggested by ThePykeSon on 2022-05-18), including upvotes (1) and comments (0), was merged into this suggestion.
18 May, '22
Nicksnoop
I don't like this idea. I'm scared that units would look over-designed. Furthermore, the power-gap between 1th and 3d tier units could become so strong, that the game becomes all about keeping troops upgraded. Where do you get the gold for those upgrades? Economy would have to be updated to make this work. And it's really annoying to backtrack to the city to get tier 3 upgrades, since the wielder with the biggest army would probably be pretty for away by the point you finally have some fully upgraded buildings. For me this feature would be annoying and wouldn't add any benefits to the game..
19 May, '22
Game kNight Plays
@Nicksnoop
It worked in Disciples as well as Heroes V - it added that extra layer to the game that it needed, and created differences between even the same factions in multiplayer/skirmishes. Now, this is a second upgrade, to the already existing upgrade - a bit different from what I'm suggesting (which is an upgrade to the upgraded unit but split) so it would be one extra unit where my suggestion would be two extra units.

It could be amazing to have and I would prefere this over adding bigger and badder units to the game.

Cost wise, I don't think it will be an issue and you have the rally points you can build as well as taking over new settlements... don't think it is an issue.
19 May, '22
Dre
I support this, an alternative upgrade path/unit would be great to add some variety.
22 May, '22
HotseatOnlyPlayer
I share the same concerns as Nicksnoop above, backtracking for upgrades is not fun. It also is burdensome managing the creature inventory when you cannot stack upgraded and not upgraded units. I think the implementation in HOMM4 is vastly better here, where instead of upgrading units, it forces you to choose between different units, like 'do I get vampires or venom spawns'. Unit type choice adds meaningful decisions that have lasting consequences, and additionally adds alot of replayabillity because number of unit combinations scale fast with number of selections.
25 May, '22
Clean&Clear
@HotseatOnlyPlayer
I didn't like this system in homam4, I felt it's unsatisfying because you feel like the game is artifically gating you from using all the units of your faction. While bactracking for upgrades can be cumbersome and managing nonupgraded and upgraded units is more tight in SoC because of limited command slots, I still like the feeling of upgrading units. I think a good step SoC did, but could do even more, is making the upgrades more significant in power and thus more expensive to obtain, so they don't feel automatic, you don't get them super early and need to actually put some thought into when to get them.
25 May, '22
Clean&Clear
I didn't like the alternate upgrades in homam 5 too much, because I felt like most of the times one version is better than the other and the game didn't give you much incentive to choose the other one based on the circumstances in a specific game. Basically you would choose the better one almost all the time.
BUT for SoC this could be different because of essence, if the upgrades gave different essence this could be a nice way to encourage selecting the right version ad hoc because you might want different essence on different wielders. Or having a variant with more essence for spellcasters and less essence for warriors.
So for SoC i support this idea, currently the factions need to be more unique and even more unique units could be part of that, although not the top prio for me. First I would like more unique research and buildings for factions.
25 May, '22
HotseatOnlyPlayer
@Clean&Clear
I agree fully on your comments on HOMM5, there was no actual strategic decisions from the alternate upgrades. In the end it became a mechanic of choosing skins, choosing the ones that looked the pretties/coolest.

I can see the point on artificial gating and that it might feel weird, but I disagree that it is unsatisfying. Almost all games I have in HOMM4 with that choice system I have to battle with some hard strategic decisions. Do I buy the unit I need and can afford right now, or do I wait and search with hope to find the resource that will get me the unit I really want for my build. Other times I want to try out new unit builds just to play something different. This mechanic is one of many small things that ensures that I still play HOMM4 regularly to this day.

A bit off topic: I am a sad to see that because HOMM4 was not that well received because of some misteps, many fail to see that several mechanics in that game was very meaningful upgrades from HOMM3.
28 May, '22
UU
That's a great idea for a future DLC.
07 Jun, '22
origo
Alternate upgrade paths should be even more interesting for this game, it could unlock different energy source (like arcane for humans).
09 Jun, '22
PhamTrinli
I wouldn't want this for every unit, but I think all of the very top tier units (like the eth'dra) deserve a second upgrade potential
18 Jun, '22
Clean&Clear
@HotseatOnlyPlayer
I'm a bit late with the reply, but better than never:)

I agree with you on the hard strategic decisions and that those are definitely desirable, but my critique against exclusive choices in strategy games in general is that you can create the same hard choice with cost balancing, without the need to actually remove the other possibility for the rest of the game. If you have 2 top tier late game units and their buildings are both expensive, you still have a hard choice at the point when you can only afford one of them, and the second one only much later.

I think the concept of exclusive choices unnecessarily multiplies any imbalances, if one of the 2 exclusive choices is generally more versatile, you will tend to choose the "safer" one unless the current conditions are really specific, because there is no going back. If the choice is not exclusive, you can actually decide more based on current situation, which should make the results more varied.
23 Jun, '22
Moderator Admin
There are no plans for this feature as it requires a lot of time and balancing and creation of more assets. We'd rather spend this time towards more factions or neutral units, more artifacts or adventure map buildings.
02 Jul, '22
Tordin Merged
I love that SoC is something uniqe, breaks the mold yet draws influence from the HoMM games.
Many says HoMM 3 was the pinnacle. Yes it was good. But if HoMM 5 was great for it was alternate upgrades. On the old forums even Homm3 vets agreed it was a great addition, though more to balance.

Suggest it fits alot better AFTER release. Gotta be alot but IMO fun/ worthwhile work. Alternate upgrades could give even more replayability and depth. Tactically, strategically. Stats/ Cost/ Abilities being a few key factors to adjust.

A few examples:

Green dragons, upgrades into Orangish Elder Dragon still with fiery breath. What about an alternate Purple Ancient dragon? Same pixelstyle look but with a chaos/ energy breath?

So say the Footmen could be upgraded to either the Shield of Order OR say Sword/ Hammer of Order. A unit with a BIG two handed sword/ hammer and more armor. It could have more defence and melee offence than the SoO, BUT a bit slower and/ or could cast an ability if
02 Jul, '22
TheBlasterPastor Admin
"Alternate Upgrades. Two upg total or more for most/ some tiers for all factions." (suggested by Tordin on 2022-07-02), including upvotes (1) and comments (0), was merged into this suggestion.
05 Sep, '22
kz
I disagree. More upgrades = less compatibility of new troops with the ones already in the army of any wielder. This means more complicated logistics, with wielders and settlements often having mutually incompatible armies. I think adding a new faction (not "new factions", but just one well-designed and well-delivered, like the existing ones) should be the priority instead.
10 Sep, '22
james Merged
elder dragons are cool but the other factions need units like these
10 Sep, '22
FreezeZ Admin
"more upgradable last unit in every castle not just rana." (suggested by james on 2022-09-10), including upvotes (1) and comments (0), was merged into this suggestion.
30 Oct, '22
Scott
I never liked the multiple upgrade paths in HOMM5. Just made it more convoluted. There is already a lot of variation in battle with spells/affects, height, etc. Don't need to through new variations of each unit into the mix.
25 Nov, '22
roman
Although I really liked the artwork of some units in disciples 3 and the thrill of different paths in upgrades, I think it is way too risky to keep things in balance. There are already quite enough options. And the last thing anyone would want is an imbalanced game I think.

My vote is no. (and please accept my thanks for making this great game for anyone plus anyone who loved homm 3 )
04 Dec, '22
SSX
Why spend more time on more factions if all the factions are the same with different art assets?
This would be an actual improvement. Or maybe fix the factions first?
06 Aug
Zaxori
Why would you put more effort into balancing new units and factions rather than polishing the ones you already have?? I've seen so many games make this mistake of cranking out 10 factions to simulate diversity but really it's just 2 or 3 new units and a bunch of reskins. Please, I see this game has so much potential. Don't waste it making empty factions when you could really work hard on making very solid factions.